Our brakes were crap from day one. I opened a wheel at about 1000 milesand found grease leaking past the seals on all four wheels. Also all brake shoes, drums and magnets were badly scored. So I changed the backing plates with new Dexter Made in USA parts, new Timken wheel bearings and had the drums turned. After completion I burnished the brakes according to the Lippert manual. The conclusion was much improved braking.
Recently a fellow Redwood owner told me that his dealer suspected the brake wiring was undersized and had too much voltage drop from the pin box to the wheels. So his dealer changed out the wiring to a heavier gauge.
This winter I decided to increase the wire gauge in hopes of further brake improvement. Opening up the junction box beneath the pin box I discovered that the factory ran a single 16 gauge wire (blue) to the wheels. Lippert manual calls for 4 amps per wheel to brake and also advises to use minimum 14 gauge or even 12 gauge depending on distance from pin box to wheels. It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that 16 ga wire is undersized.
I ran a 10 gauge wire from the pin box back to the axles and connected to each wheel with 12 gauge. My oh my what a difference in braking!
Did you find that you had to back off on the gain on the brakes? Our experience was that the braking at the same gain setting was much better.
I was running at 7.5 gain on my brake controller prior to the wiring change because of a noisy, loose TriGlide pin box. The lower I kept the trailer brake setting the less slamming from the TriGlide.
Just prior to the wiring change I changed the pin box to a FlexAir which solved the slamming problem. I left the brake setting at 7.5. The brakes were much more effective at the same gain and I could even feel the trailer acting like an anchor in heavy braking situations on the 1400 mile trip home. So I left the gain at 7.5.
Although disc brakes are obviously better than drum brakes I suspect a few Redwood owners have unnecessarily made the change when clean brakes and better wiring could have made the drum brakes effective.
BTW, I have a friend who took delivery of a new 2016 Redwood 31SL last month. He drove it home from the dealer and complained about the lack of braking. He took it to a different dealer who opened the wheels and found they were all contaminated by grease. When will Redwood learn?
I was running at 7.5 gain on my brake controller prior to the wiring change because of a noisy, loose TriGlide pin box. The lower I kept the trailer brake setting the less slamming from the TriGlide.
Just prior to the wiring change I changed the pin box to a FlexAir which solved the slamming problem. I left the brake setting at 7.5. The brakes were much more effective at the same gain and I could even feel the trailer acting like an anchor in heavy braking situations on the 1400 mile trip home. So I left the gain at 7.5.
Although disc brakes are obviously better than drum brakes I suspect a few Redwood owners have unnecessarily made the change when clean brakes and better wiring could have made the drum brakes effective.
BTW, I have a friend who took delivery of a new 2016 Redwood 31SL last month. He drove it home from the dealer and complained about the lack of braking. He took it to a different dealer who opened the wheels and found they were all contaminated by grease. When will Redwood learn?
Since Redwood's engineering/manufacturing groups do not perform any quality control functions, they can't possibly learn if anything they are doing is inferior or needs improvement. And, apparently they don't give any credence to customer feedback or warranty issues/complaints. But, it appears to me that this is just normal RV industry mentality.
Our brakes were crap from day one. I opened a wheel at about 1000 milesand found grease leaking past the seals on all four wheels. Also all brake shoes, drums and magnets were badly scored. So I changed the backing plates with new Dexter Made in USA parts, new Timken wheel bearings and had the drums turned. After completion I burnished the brakes according to the Lippert manual. The conclusion was much improved braking.
Recently a fellow Redwood owner told me that his dealer suspected the brake wiring was undersized and had too much voltage drop from the pin box to the wheels. So his dealer changed out the wiring to a heavier gauge.
This winter I decided to increase the wire gauge in hopes of further brake improvement. Opening up the junction box beneath the pin box I discovered that the factory ran a single 16 gauge wire (blue) to the wheels. Lippert manual calls for 4 amps per wheel to brake and also advises to use minimum 14 gauge or even 12 gauge depending on distance from pin box to wheels. It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that 16 ga wire is undersized.
I ran a 10 gauge wire from the pin box back to the axles and connected to each wheel with 12 gauge. My oh my what a difference in braking!
I posted the voltage drops on another post (I think it's under Towing?). As you have now confirmed, the voltage is probably in line with the brake rating. A #10 should be the smallest wire size. Take note Redwood...Even with that, I no longer trust drum brakes. I am so happy with the new discs on the RV, I'm looking for a disc conversion kit for my dually rears...NO MORE DRUMS!
Should have bought a GMC Gipc
Here are the calculations to complete this discussion:
nw snowbirds wrote:
Gypsy,
Can you tell me how much voltage drop would occur when drawing 16 amps at 12 v D.C. thru 25 feet of 16 gauge copper wire? That is how my electric brakes were wired from the pin box to the wheels and I have now changed to 10 gauge wires down each side.
This will be for straight up results based on 12V, 16A. There are other variables such as the type of controller used, the condition of your battery and alternator, and the connections of the wires. If they get water in them, resistance goes up:
#16 AWG
Volt Drop 3.21
Percent Loss 26.75%
Volts at end 8.79
#12 AWG
Volt Drop 1.27
Percent Loss 10.58%
Volts at end 10.73
#10 AWG
Volt Drop 0.8
Percent Loss 6.67%
Volt at end 11.2
#8 AWG
Volt Drop 0.5
Percent Loss 4.17%
Volt at end 11.5
Resistance of Copper Wire at 68 degrees F per 1000':
#16 4.016
#12 1.588
#10 0.9989
# 8 0.6282
Generally , you want to stay at 5% loss or less. But for your electric brakes, 0.3 Volts is not that much since your less than 25'.
If you want a real performance increase, consider disc brakes in the future. It's night and day, summer and winter, male versus female.....
Rams have drums in the back ? I was upset that the Focus has rear drums. Never thought a truck would in this day and age ......
Unfortunately, yes...I look forward to "upgrading" further later this year. The new Rams have a new air suspension system (front to back). I'll see about the discs on the rear. The payload and towing capacity certainly has increased. Can't wait!
Twice we have had our right side brakes send up flames and smoke. The first time we thought just another problem. Yeah right....today same thing happened.
Guess what Redwood, we will be trading your POS 5th wheel and getting a more reliable unit.
I can't believe RW hasn't learned yet.
Within the first year or so our original brakes started slipping and working very inconsistently. When I started trouble shooting found grease filled brakes and drums in bad shape. Very long story short... RW authorized a complete brake replacement. They sent the brakes and parts to the approved shop. They put them in "as directed". Within a week, I had to remove the new brakes, clean grease out and repack bearings.
From the beginning, we had repeated issues with the brake hardware and electrical. Finally made the decision to change out to disc brakes. I installed them, so we saved $. These are night and day different; but I'm convinced we never had fully working brakes before.
I certainly understand your frustration. We all paid a lot and in return, many did not get what they paid for.
The electric brakes are undersized for the size of this RV. But do understand that if you buy ANY RV of this size and use the electric brakes, you may very well experience the same issues. ALL RV's use the exact same parts. It's an unregulated industry. Go to any trailer repair center and you will see. It's more about the installation and the experience of the person putting them on.
Grease, when it gets hot is going to liquify to a point. If the inexperienced person does not use the proper tools to set the seal, it will warp and leak by. Seals are a sensitive part. They are flimsy at best and equal pressure has to be applied when they are installed.
There is only so much room for grease. Put too much in and the grease will go somewhere. It can be the rear seal or the front cap. It is an art to get the right amount in.
Then, there is the grease used. If you use one that is too "loose", it can liquify more than others.
Add to this an improper wire size (usually a #16 gauge) and the voltage drops too low to send the right voltage to the brake magnets. It needs to be at least a number #10.
In all, the industry is unregulated. As such, details like this are overlooked to big degree by all manufacturers.
One issue I see is that consumers do not do their homework before buying (me included initially). I won't make the same mistake twice.
For those who read this and don't seem to have a problem with electric brakes, first it's my bet that they don't have the 2" shoes. They have the 3.5" shoes and/or they have repaired their own brakes properly.
You're best bet is to remember why you bought what you bought and consider installing disc brakes and H rated tires. Then start working for a new armor roof (or equivalent). Had we known in advance, we would not have bought without it.
Best wishes with whatever you ultimately do. We've thought about doing the same thing. But they are all the same unless you want to step up to a DRV Mobile Suites. Even there, you'll need to deal with the roof in due time.
Unfortunately, yes...I look forward to "upgrading" further later this year. The new Rams have a new air suspension system (front to back). I'll see about the discs on the rear. The payload and towing capacity certainly has increased. Can't wait!
What year is your RAM? By the pic it looks fairly new.
Dodge went to disks in the rear in 2001. If yours has drums, something strange happened.
Rick
Unfortunately, yes...I look forward to "upgrading" further later this year. The new Rams have a new air suspension system (front to back). I'll see about the discs on the rear. The payload and towing capacity certainly has increased. Can't wait!
What year is your RAM? By the pic it looks fairly new.
Dodge went to disks in the rear in 2001. If yours has drums, something strange happened.Rick
Its a 2014 with 41000 miles now. This was just one of those things I guess. It was the very last 2014 in a 1000 mile range as the 15's were already in production. I was a bit too eager...Just an over site on my part. They work fine but in combination with the discs on the RV, it would have been awesome. They will be on the 2017 or 18 model I choose for sure.
GipCTraveler-
We did a lot of research before we bought our RW. The reality is there simply isn't a perfect one. I have met people with DRV that have issues.
I am really happy with the upgrades that we have made. I would not be too excited about RW increasing the price of their 5th wheels to cover every improvement we each want. We looked at New Horizon before we bought a RW. New Horizon has very few issues, but they can cost upwards of $250,000--for a 5th wheel, no motor.
Several, including us (and certainly you), have had some significant issues. I know RW is continuing to listen and making some improvements. It won't help us, but they have to start somewhere.
