RE: INSURANCE - GENERAL

OK...Like many of you, I HATE INSURANCE!

BUT, we all have to have it :angry: . Sometimes I think if we didn't have insurance but instead, we put the money we would have paid out into a savings fund, we'd be almost as rich as the insurance companies are...

Having said that, "we" continue to pre-plan for FREEDOM DAY :woohoo: . It's the day we finally say enough is enough and retire to go full-time.

If it wasn't for INSURANCE, we'd be there a lot sooner.

To date, we are estimating... We realize it changes daily; from State to State; and Country to Country. But has anyone stopped to see how much of their monthly budget this actually is?

Right now, here is what we have pre-budgeted for.

Insurance is likely to change in the next year or two and we can shop around for better rates. We get it... It also depends on your deductibles and policy limits. But for full-timers, how much (in percentage of total budget) do you allow monthly for all of your insurances combined? We can see this easily adding up to 40-60% of your "basic" RV full-timing budget if you let it get out of hand.

Are you typically use higher limits to off set lower premiums?

Sure, there are risks and not everyone can assume that kind of risk...We understand that as well.

MEDICAL:

How about Obama-nation Care? Are many of your FORCED to take this on since alternatives may be limited? (That would apply to US citizens only of course). Were you able to find ways around it?

We also know many of you may solicit care outside the Country. Particularly Mexico and Canada. How has that worked out from a practical point and expense point? Do they typically take your insurance when you cross the border? Or is it a cash only basis?

Just curious of how everyone manages insurances when full-timing....

In Canada, each Province runs their own medical coverage. For Canadians we do not have to pay out of pocket in any Province, except Quebec.

Can't speak for other Provinces, but in BC, all non-Canadians and residents of Quebec must pay up front for any doctor or hospital visit. They do not accept insurance companies. I do not that our costs are substantially lower than those in the US.

Also to purchase medications in BC you must have a prescription from a BC registered doctor.

Interesting....

So, if you have a cold bug and want to go to the doctor, "we" in the US would end up paying about $60 US out of pocket and then another $20 for the prescription (of course, this varies widely with plan coverage's). In Canada, it sounds like you would not have to pay anything. WOW! There must be a catch somewhere... ??

Looking over our insurance coverage plan, if we did not have it and had to pay full out of pocket, it would have come to about $250 US + scrip. Not many will even "entertain" you if you state that you don't have insurance. I have to fight them every time I go...They want to shove all kinds of forms at your that ask for everything but your 4th great grandfather's name. I tell them this will be a cash deal and "I" will file any claim form necessary. AND NO, I won't provide any personal info other than my name (which, sometimes, I think about that...).

I hear of many that go to Canada and Mexico and receive much more favorable rates...

This is going to be an interesting topic...

Interesting....

So, if you have a cold bug and want to go to the doctor, "we" in the US would end up paying about $60 US out of pocket and then another $20 for the prescription (of course, this varies widely with plan coverage's). In Canada, it sounds like you would not have to pay anything. WOW! There must be a catch somewhere... ??

Looking over our insurance coverage plan, if we did not have it and had to pay full out of pocket, it would have come to about $250 US + scrip. Not many will even "entertain" you if you state that you don't have insurance. I have to fight them every time I go...They want to shove all kinds of forms at your that ask for everything but your 4th great grandfather's name. I tell them this will be a cash deal and "I" will file any claim form necessary. AND NO, I won't provide any personal info other than my name (which, sometimes, I think about that...).

I hear of many that go to Canada and Mexico and receive much more favorable rates...

This is going to be an interesting topic...

Yes there is a catch to the free medical in canada those expenses are picked up in a 20% increase in your yearly taxes you pay. Where do you think Obama care is going to get the money from :angry:

Interesting....

So, if you have a cold bug and want to go to the doctor, "we" in the US would end up paying about $60 US out of pocket and then another $20 for the prescription (of course, this varies widely with plan coverage's). In Canada, it sounds like you would not have to pay anything. WOW! There must be a catch somewhere... ??

Looking over our insurance coverage plan, if we did not have it and had to pay full out of pocket, it would have come to about $250 US + scrip. Not many will even "entertain" you if you state that you don't have insurance. I have to fight them every time I go...They want to shove all kinds of forms at your that ask for everything but your 4th great grandfather's name. I tell them this will be a cash deal and "I" will file any claim form necessary. AND NO, I won't provide any personal info other than my name (which, sometimes, I think about that...).

I hear of many that go to Canada and Mexico and receive much more favorable rates...

This is going to be an interesting topic...

Yes there is a catch to the free medical in canada those expenses are picked up in a 20% increase in your yearly taxes you pay. Where do you think Obama care is going to get the money from :angry:

Yep...I bet your right...

Now for the good part...

Because we will sell off all assets and live via the RV, we will not be paying property taxes or payroll taxes or homeowners insurances. Yes, we'll pay tax on anything we pull from retirement accounts but if we can keep those withdrawals limited, we'll be like our kids and we won't pay any taxes because we are under the limits. Then, the only remaining taxes would be sales taxes on anything we buy or taxes on the Parks systems. So we might actually be able to afford some "insurances"... :sick:

What's the limit for not paying into Obama-Nation? We just want catastrophic insurance for major illnesses...(high deductibles)

In Canada we pay for medical coverage through taxes. In BC we pay income tax and a Medical Service Premium. For a 90K income the average tax rate is about 23%, with additional income taxed at 38 to 45%. We also pay a flat MSP of about $52 per person, per month. However, the MSP is normally paid by most employers and in our case by the Pension Corporation.

As a non-resident an Emergency Room visit would cost you about $800 per day and a hospital ward about $3,200 per day. Consultants, x-rays, etc are in addition to these rates. These costs include all consumable like gauze, injections, etc.

The down side of our system is waiting times for treatment not deemed life-threatening.

$90,000 C at 23% would be $20,700 a year tax. Add in the $52 MSP per person, that adds another $1250 for a couple. This equates to about $21,950 annually. Right?

$90,000 C exchanged for USD, I think this would be $64,800 by comparison ($0.72 to $1)?

If right, by comparison, that would be a US tax of $12,312 at 18% a year here and then we would pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $8400 a year for insurance (for a couple. At least where I work now). Then, we apply deductibles.

So, it sounds like pay me now or pay me later.

I don't know about our hospital room rates, but for a broken arm, it cost me $850 (cash pay vs. insurance). This happened to one of our family. The South, Mid South area is probably a lot less expensive that East or West coast areas. Others could confirm that.

Traditional rules here allow the DR to invoice the insurance first. Then, you pay the remainder (usually about 90 days later). Some will ask for services and the co-pay when rendered.

The same here for hospitals...You can have a raging fever of 107 and they will look at someone with a gunshot wound, a broken limb or appendicitis first.

And DON'T go there for a toothache in the middle of the night when you can't find a dentist. Just suffer it out. They won't dispense any kind of pain reliever for that at all. I had to endure that one on a Saturday night one time. It was Monday before the dentist would see me. I have no respect for this practice. They could have kept you overnight if they were concerned that you had a drug problem and just wanted them...

Greg,

In addition to Govt Medical, for the higher tax rate we also receive a Federal Govt Pension at age 65. Only requirement is being a Canadian for at least 10 years.

Judi used to work as an RN in our local major trauma hospital and they treated everyone that walked in the door. Priority was totally based on the Triage Nurse's assessment. Yes, even with a tooth ache, you would get a temporary filling and pain control.

We have zero deductibles, except Physiotherapy, Chiropractors and other non-traditional medical providers. In hospital we have no HMO's dictating the level of care or treatment. If your doctor determines you require something you get it. If not critical, the down side is waiting lists.

So with your insurance providers. If you received a medical service in Canada or mexico, which costs considerably less than the equivalent service in the USA, on submitting the bills for payment, you would not receive the full amount. They would reduce you payment by a deductible?

The deductible is a penalty. It's meant to discourage you from going to the doctor unless you really have to go. Here, they discourage you from going so they can sit on your money longer. The longer they sit on it, the more investment money have to work with.

You are responsible for the "deductible". Based on your policy, you pay the first amount BEFORE the insurance will begin to pay their part. I've seen policies where we pay the first $2500 USD per person in a family and THEN, the insurance begins to pay. I've also seen deductibles for an individual for $2500 and a family plan of $5000.

AFTER the deductible has been met for an individual or family, THEN you have what is known as the Co-Pay for all prescriptions. The insurance again negotiates pre-pricing with pharmaceuticals for some (but not all) drugs. In network will be one rate. Out of network or for drugs not negotiated, it's a totally higher rate. For most all drugs, there will be a co-pay. If a drug is $100 out of pocket but in network, the insurance company may have negotiated to pay $75 (which, I wonder if they really do pay this). You will still have to pay $25.

I haven't really figured out why we buy insurance. I can actually negotiate my own cash rate for considerably less. But OBAMA-NATION now FORCES everyone here to have a certain amount of insurance. They basically steal it out of your check without your permission. It's a win-win for them. They get to gather as much data about you as they can and you pay for it.

There are a few reasons why I would want insurance. But it's about managing risk and everyone assesses that differently. If I had a family history of serious illnesses, I would take out more than a person who may not have that issue. We may want a policy with a $10,000 USD limit. If we have events under the $10K, then we pay for them. That would seriously reduce the annual premiums paid. The amount due per yearly would likely drop to $2K or less. NOT $8500 and more.

Generally, they make you select from a concoction of doctors they have supposedly "negotiated" with. You might not like the ones they pick. That's called "in-network". If you go to a doctor or clinic or hospital "out of network" (someone they have not negotiated a rate with), then the insurance company pays even less.

With all of this said above, may people opt to go directly to the hospital for services. The lines are horrible. Many do this because the insurance might pay 100% for "emergencies" where otherwise, individuals will pay out of pocket for a regular doctors visits.

At the risk of setting off a political firestorm, our system in the US stinks. True...there are a lot of excellent doctors and medical equipment available. But it's like shopping for a car. You can buy a Chevy to get by or you can spend a fortune on a Ferrari and get great service. Some HAVE to settle on a Yugo and see what happens. (Those are metaphors by the way. I could go another direction with that as well) That's why you see so many attempt to find alternatives (like Canada and Mexico). Some even fly to other countries to catch a break.

I don't understand enough about the Canadian systems to make a call. It seems that there are benefits, but at the same time, I could see that system abused by politicians as well. If the funds go into a "general" account, I can see governments using this as a slush fund for other purposes. Governments don't have to live by the same rules as "common folk" do. We set line item budgets and that money is designated to that line. When we're out of money for that line, we're out. The Governments just print more money or steal more from you (in the form of taxes). There is ZERO accountability whatsoever.

Here, I've seen companies "use" Union environments to control costs. I've seen Unions here run companies into the ground. There has to be balance and trust. I see this issue the same way. Humanistic-ally, I just don't believe we'll get there. It seems to be hooray for me and to heck with everyone else. So sad...I'm just glad we're not ALL like that.

Greg,

In addition to Govt Medical, for the higher tax rate we also receive a Federal Govt Pension at age 65. Only requirement is being a Canadian for at least 10 years.

Judi used to work as an RN in our local major trauma hospital and they treated everyone that walked in the door. Priority was totally based on the Triage Nurse's assessment. Yes, even with a tooth ache, you would get a temporary filling and pain control.

We have zero deductibles, except Physiotherapy, Chiropractors and other non-traditional medical providers. In hospital we have no HMO's dictating the level of care or treatment. If your doctor determines you require something you get it. If not critical, the down side is waiting lists.

So with your insurance providers. If you received a medical service in Canada or mexico, which costs considerably less than the equivalent service in the USA, on submitting the bills for payment, you would not receive the full amount. They would reduce you payment by a deductible?

Pensions:

That's more money the Government takes from us...They call it Social Security here. It's another "tax" (+6% for workers and +12% if you are a sole proprietor) out of your paycheck. Depending on what you make, they take and put it into an account just for you! How nice!. Then, they pay you a paltry amount when you retire. Based on the amount of money they take, if you had invested that into your 401K (a private account), you would be miles ahead of what they pay out. I don't remember what year it was, but somewhere a number of years back (1970's?), they took that account money and moved it to the "general" fund so they could spend it on whatever they wanted to. It was because once again, they can't manage money. As a result, now many of us will be lucky to see SS in retirement and if we do, it will continue to be reduced over time.

There is yet another tax for medical expenses for when we get older. That one is roughly 3% of your check. Again, if you were allowed to manage that money, there would be a lot more.

You can't win. By the time you get a paycheck, you usually get 40% of what's left...

Just curious Oriana,

Which part of BC are you in (not exact, but approximately)? Northern, Southern, Middle?

One of our first trips when we go full-time will take us through there. We've never been to Alaska and we would like to spend a summer there.

How up are you on the Alaska Highway? Is it paved all the way now? I've heard rumors about that.

If you're still there at that time, maybe we visit?

We live in the Vancouver suburbs, about 20 miles from the US border. We have never been up to even Northern BC, never mind the Yukon/Alaska.

I believe the main roads are paved, but in many places are of questionable quality due to frost heave, etc.

Enroute to the Rally we heading up to Dawson Creek, which is Mile 0 of the Alaska Hwy, so if you are attending this year's Rally we can fill you in on at least getting to the start of the Alaska Hwy.

Yes, we will still have a residence in the Vancouver area, rest of Canada has snow and is way too cold.

The issue of the differences between the US and Canada on health care is always interesting and sometimes it's like religion and politics (shouldn't be discussed around the campfire for fear of fights breaking out!).

I'm fortunate in not having to require any major US health care while being down here each winter, but I had to attend a doctor for some pink eye a couple of years ago. I do carry health care top up insurance to cover the difference between US and Canada health costs, our "free" health care in Ontario covers the cost of US charges up to what it would cost in Canada, that's probably about half the cost for similar US costs.

I ended up at an emergency walk in clinic at a cost of $200 and didn't get treated because I take medication for high eye pressure, then went to an eye specialist for another $200 all to get a prescription for eye drops at $8.

I got most of that money back from the insurance, not a problem. After going through that exercise I tried to see what the cost would have been in Canada for a comparison.

Because we never see an invoice for the cost of any medical treatments (we have a card that is used anywhere in the country at any doctor or hospital, no paperwork or having the doctors to have staff deal with multiple reams of insurance paperwork) I had to do some digging to find the comparable cost for similar treatment back in Ontario.

I found that the Ontario rate (a few years back) that the doctor gets for a similar visit would be about $33 and approx $66 for an eye specialist.

The downside is that we do pay for the cost of health care via various direct and indirect taxes that vary by province since health care is a provincial responsibility, not federal. For example, 15 cans of Coors Light cost about $25 in Canada and here in WalMart I get 30 cans for $17, and a gallon of diesel fuel runs around $3.50 compared to $2.09 here (some of that difference is oil company gouging but most is tax) excluding currency conversion.

Which is better and which costs more for an individual, I don't know. I, for one, would like to see a nominal ($10 to $25) fee for each medical service to stop folks from clogging emergency rooms to see doctors with frivolous ailments like colds etc.

I did see a comment on Facebook stating "would you live in a country where owning a gun is a right and life saving health care is a privilege?", the debate goes on!

Hopefully this is not too political! Not for the republicans at least!

Al,

I concur with the nominal fee to visit a doctor or ER. In BC this could easily take the place of our additional MSP fee. You only have to ask Judi about her experiences to see the abuses.

Can you use your Ontario card in Quebec, as when I checked for Canada wide medical, I read that all Provinces except Quebec have reciprocal agreements. We can use our BC card everywhere except Quebec and it said all other Provinces were the same. The only thing we would not get covered in another Province is medivac back to BC.

In BC, the Govt will also cover the cost of services received in the US, but only up to the equivalent cost of the service in BC. This is why our travel insurance requires we maintain MSP coverage.

In 1999 I moved to the us in Chicago. I took exactly the same job as I had in Canada. When i left I had 54% coming off my weekly cheques in tax deductions compared to the 27% tax deductions here.also at that same time the cost of living was much cheaper eg food,clothing, fuel etc. The taxes just for free medical alone was around 20% at the time