What Gip was saying was that anything AFTER 2016 would be able to have it done easier.. I think it would be an easy install for you IF you already have the following:
* - Pre wire for 3rd AC
* - Energy Management System
Thank you Joe. I didn’t read that correctly. Not enough (or perhaps too much) coffee this morning!
I’ll have to determine is it’s wired but I’m guessing I may have another problem. I suspect they mounted my Winegard Travlr satellite dish very close to where that 3rd AC is intended to be installed. Just my luck.
If my memory is correct, the 3rd A/C unit only became an option when they changed to the straight & level roofs.
We feel the outside temp pain in the Texas panhandle as well, it was 109 here today , the only difference I have the three a/c's and mine is maintaining the 72 set point , and cycles on and off through out the day , guess I lucked out on my redwood
Jeremy I'm assuming that only two of your ACs run at a single time? I'm asking because I thought a 50 amp service could only run 2 units. I can definitely see the benefits of a third unit as my bedroom stays cool but a single unit in the larger living room section has a hard time keeping up. Is your third unit ducted into the factory ducts?
PunksRedwood,
I wanted to circle back to your 50A concern...It's a long story but if you are not familiar with electrical circuits, this might help you understand.
If you are connected to a 50A outlet, you have (2) 50 amp "legs" to work with (more about that below).
You can load each "leg" to 50 Amps before a breaker would trip. There is a caveat to that...
1st - Breakers operate on two principals:
a) Magnetic for short circuits
b) Thermal heat for overload conditions
Breakers technically are only "guaranteed" to trip 1 time (we all use them over and over I know).
In order to work properly, the breaker needs to be fairly new on the pedestal outside. It needs to fit into the sockets correctly for a tight fit. Lose connections generate heat.
Now, that you know this, there is a difference between a 30A and 50A connection.
With electrical circuits, you have phasing. In laymen terms, for a single phase panel, you will have two legs on opposite circuits.
Using a meter:
Put a meter across 1 hot leg and a ground or neutral and you'll read 120V.
Put a meter across 1 hot leg and the hot leg, you will read 240V.
Everything in the RV that runs on household power is rated at 120V (there are 12V devices as well. We'll not discuss that here).
So, when you are connected to a 30A RV park pedestal and use an adapter, you only have 30A available (total). The adapter basically takes both legs of your RV and ties them together thru the adapter.
On a 50A circuit, you have two legs on opposite phases. You have two legs of 50A each. So, in total, you have 100A to use. You cannot exceed 50A on each leg though or the breaker will trip on overload.
As an example, today, I am running 2 A/C units. I have a Progressive HW50C Hard-Wired Power Meter that measures volts and amps. With a few stray small loads (for 2 fans, the CO2 Sensor and alarm clocks plugged in, etc.), I have:
L-1 111V and I am using 21A
L-2 114V and I am using 17A
Total: 39A
Normal voltage from a power plant should be 120V at this connection point. But electricity travels across the US where many people are using it (or in the case of Texas, only Texans use it with limited exceptions). There are also voltage drops due to distance, connections, heat, resistance losses of transformers, etc). The power plants tend to provide you 120V (+ or - 10%). The problem with exactness also has to do with how fast the turbines are turning. As usage go's up (more megawatts), the generator has to generate more power (steam, nuclear or solar) to keep the voltage up. So, it's never exactly 120V. That's one reason my numbers will show you fluctuation in voltage. The other is that I am increasing the load on the RV electrical. Wire size can only go so far and RV factories typically install smaller wire that the NEC codes. They instead have some of their own manufacturing codes.
Back to the demo...
I then turned on the water heater (electric side). The meter changed.
L-1 108V and 32A
L-2 114V and 17A
Total: 49A
Then, I added all of the RV lights. I still use (and like) the Halogen type. If you use LED, they use far less amps but cost 10 times as much and generally don't last that much longer. But that is a personal experience and preference.
L-1 108V and 32A
L-2 114V and 30A
Total: 62A
Then, I added the microwave.
L-1 109V and 31A (Notice that the voltage went up 1V and amps went down 1A on this leg. The higher the voltage, the lower the amps. That's one reason you want a park that has good voltage.)
L-2 111V and 46A
Total: 77A
The breaker is heating up but holding. On a two pole 50A breaker, you would be at approximately 61.5% capacity averaged. But you can't look at it that way because when you exceed 50A on one leg, the breaker will trip both. That's why it's called a double pole breaker. Circuits are designed to loaded the breaker to 80% of the capacity. You can run 100%, but the breaker, wire and connections will heat up (remember the thermal properties of the breaker?) Over time, that hardens the grease inside and can cause the breaker to fail (magnetically and thermally). The breakers are actually tested at the breaker factory and are designed to work for a period at exactly 50A, but not that long on overload (higher the amps, shorter the time). It will trip if it is working properly. If not, well then, the panel melts down...
I'm telling you all of this so that you can better understand how adding another A/C might work on some units but it will take energy management.
Each 15,000 BTU A/C will draw about 12-15A (depending on voltage issues and wear of electrical parts).
So three A/C units on one of the two legs will run about 36A to 45A. If that were all there was, then, no problem. Stack them up and let the other leg carry everything else. But A/C compressor starts are a drag and and induce higher resistance. That drags down the voltage and increases amp draw. (Capacitors take some of that amp draw out by providing a break high voltage increase. Don't ever tough one without shorting it out first - and there are approved methods for that). So if you had all three start or cycle at the same time, that would trip your pedestal or RV panel circuit and shut down your RV.
Moving one A/C to the opposite leg reduces the amps on one leg and decreases the load on the other. You'll note that my two A/C's are on opposite legs. When I turn the water heater on, it is on with one A/C. When I turn the microwave on, the other leg with the A/C goes up. It's a balancing act. When I turn the microwave on, that pretty much tied up that leg at higher amps. When I turned on the lights, that made the first leg go higher.
In an ideal world, one also has to consider the imbalance on the neutral. If one leg is at 10 amp and the other leg is at 12 amps, there is an imbalanced load. The neutral carries that load back. That has an effect on your utility bill but that is another story for another time...
If you want to read a good article about the RV electrical, see this web link. It include diagrams and hopefully some of this will make sense:
http://rvtravel.com/more-power-to-ya-your-rv-that-is/
If you add a third A/C, make sure 2 are on one circuit and 1 is on the other. The power management system will control which unit starts and cycles as not to overload the start up current.
Running two A/C units on a 30A - single phase circuit is pretty much a no-no. Even if nothing else is on. Voltage fluctuations and line losses will catch up with you and trip the circuit. It also reduces the life of your A/C's.
Running two units on a 50A - 2 phase circuit is not an issue.
Running three units requires coordination.
Hope that helps...
GipC thank you. That information is very informative and pretty easy to understand. Before I retired I worked for Colorado Springs Utilities one of the largest four service (electric, gas, water and wastewater) municipal utilities in the country. I was a natural gas guy and we gas guys were terrified of electricity and the electric guys were scared to death of gas! Lol. I definitely need to understand more about electricity.
That said the loads on my coach seem well balanced with each of my ACs split between the two legs. Of course the rest of the AC load seems well balanced between both legs as well with microwave on one leg and refrigerator on the second. I added a Splendide washer and dryer and the circuits for both of those are also split between the two legs. Like you I am running the Progressive Industries PT50X (portable) but it displays voltage, frequency, amps and fault codes and by monitoring it I've noticed the load seems well split.
I have experienced some low voltage in my park which has resulted in the PT50X shutting down power to my coach. The owner of my park has been working with the local utility and making enhancements to his equipment to improve the voltages. Because I have pets and worry about the lack of AC when I'm gone I did purchase a Hughes Autoformer which has helped maintain more proper voltages. I can see the difference in the PT50X voltages and the Autoformer indicates when it is boosting on either line.
My AC distribution panel is full with no available slots so I couldn't add a third AC unit unless I could add another breaker/subpanel.
It appears my Power Control Center would have to be upgraded as well. The load items it seems to control are the 2 ACs and the water heater. I've seen the panels that control 3 AC units so I know it can be done. This is another item I wish I understood better. I need to research a bit more.
Thought I would give an update on our experience.
We are in Bullhead City, AZ. In full sun, no shade. It was 118* yesterday (truck showed 120*), 120* right now.
I am so impressed with our Redwood. They told us at the rally that the A/Cs were designed to cool 22* below outside air temp. At 118, the coach was 92 near the ceiling and 88 above the fireplace. Last night at 10 pm it was 103 outside and 82 inside. We have one large fan we are using to keep the air flow going in the hallway toward the bedroom, so the bedroom was cooling down nicely. We went to bed very comfortable, and I was completely under covers this morning. It was 73 near the ceiling, 68 near the fireplace and 98 outside at 7 am. Yes, it’s a dry heat and that makes a ton of difference.
My brother in law asked about keeping water on the roof to keep it cooler. If we were here for any length of time I would sure consider that.
Since you mentioned 4 Seasons... I will say we have been in below zero temp. with NO frozen pipes and we had warm fingers and toes. Can't say the same about our previous SOB 5th wheel.
I am sitting. In South Florida right now, been 10* above normal, with daytime highs around 98*...
Have the thermostat set at 73*, it has been cycling on and off today, very happy with the cooling at this point...
Adding my exterior shades made a HUGE difference in my 2018 3921GK.
They are 4 seasons rvs as advertised! We've lived in ours since it was new, 5 years, in all types of weather, rain, snow, sleet, shine, very hot & very cold, so yes it is a 4 seasons rv. Were we totally comfortable all 4 of those seasons? NO! But they NEVER advertised that we would be comfortable only that it's usable.
Travelin' Texans
Former '13 FB owner
Currently rvless!!
Good point Danny! We are now in Las Vegas and the power went out from 4:00-7:00 am. It didn’t take long for it to start warming up (96* outside) so I got to use my generator for a real reason for the very first time. Ran both our A/Cs and our interior fan with no problem and we woke up cold.
Now THAT I can believe...
If you haven't noticed,any mention of "Residential" or "Full-Timing" has been purposefully removed from their brochures. Even the warranty now claims that if you Full-Time, your warranty is void.
Next RV....
Now THAT I can believe...
If you haven't noticed,any mention of "Residential" or "Full-Timing" has been purposefully removed from their brochures. Even the warranty now claims that if you Full-Time, your warranty is void.
Next RV....
GipC:
Says it is void... in writing?
The warranty on mine, both 2 year & 5 year structural, are over with, but it still has the sticker next to the door stating it's a residential rv.
Some, if not most, insurance companies won't cover them if fulltiming, that's why we're on an extended vacation in ours.
Travelin' Texans
Former '13 FB owner
Currently rvless!!
Read what I posted in the "Perspective New Owners" site:
It's in the 4th RED paragraph down...
